The Catholic Church: I’m fucking exhausted

Time and again on this blog I have railed, ranted & raved about the Catholic Church’s continuing and baffling desecration of children, its preference for its own dogma over life itself and its general mockery of humanity. Lately, still more revelations of child-rape by Catholic priests have surfaced, this time from Germany. These revelations of course come with the standard cover-up allegations, one instance involving Pope Ratzinger himself, back when he was an archbishop in Munich.

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I could go on. There’s plenty of material here. I could rant, rave, ream & rail; ironically pontificate & passionately excoriate; scream and cry and wail and bawl and jump up and down in a fit of righteous anger. But I won’t. Not today. I’m just fucking exhausted.

I can’t keep up any more. Every time I turn around there’s another filthy fucking priest with his cock out. Every time I open a newspage or blog the words “Catholic” and “abuse” are right there in the same sentence, frequently with “scandal” and “coverup” close behind them. The only thing that seems to change is the country whose children were and are still being afflicted with the spiritual cancer that is Catholic authority. Via Greta C and PZ I even find that there’s some mouth-breathing point-missing troglodyte named Andrew Brown actually attempting a defense of the decades of Vatican-enabled child rape, seemingly by saying “we’re not the only institution to employ thousands of child-rapists so stop picking on us.” I suppose it’s true what they say: there is nothing in this world so unconscionably horrible and unquestionably cruel – flat fucking wrong – that you couldn’t find one morally tainted fuckwit to defend it.

I could devote another long & angry blog post to this shit, but I won’t. Not when others say everything I want to say. Links to follow.

Greta C illuminates the point Andrew Brown misses – it’s not the scandal per se, it’s the Vatican’s response:

The Church knew about widespread reports of priests repeatedly molesting children… and instead of acting to protect the children, they acted to protect the priests, and themselves. Thus deliberately and knowingly putting more children in the way of known child rapists, solely for their pure self-interest.

Repeatedly. Time and time again. In every part of the world. As a cold-blooded matter of Church policy.

That is the scandal.

Hitch:

The pope’s entire career has the stench of evil about it.

I could not agree more. Ratzinger’s stench is palpable even if you excise the part where he was a Hitler Youth, for which he may not be entirely culpable (though it probably drove him straight to the Church; I hypothesise that being a Junior Nazi made him used to following orders from jumped-up little tyrants in shiny uniforms and quite probably instilled in him the desire to become a jumped-up little tyrant himself).

Linkfarm:
Apologist: “everyone else rapes children, Catholics aren’t that bad”
Greta C rips into a morally bankrupt apologist for child rape
So does PZ!
Ratzinger covers up abuse while archbishop in Munich
Excorcist: “Satan at work in the Vatican”
Christopher Hitchens tears Ratzinger a new one

I’m just tired. And I’m just waiting for the world to see that the Roman Emperor, despite his gilded finery, is wearing no clothes and probably never has been.

Ugh. What a ghastly mental image.

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Sinead O’Connor rocks

In response to a recent story about an Irish bishop asking parishioners to pay Vatican legal fees incurred in the process of answering endless abuse allegations, Ms O’Connor wrote an article in The Independent which finished with this:

And if Jesus Christ is to be seen in the vulnerable of this world, then all the church has done is crucify the man over and over and over again.

If Christ was here, he would be burning down the Vatican. And I for one would be helping him.

Sinead O’Connor, you officially rock. If the day ever came to burn the Vatican to ashes I’d happily stand with you with a box of Redheads matches.

Hey, did you know matches used to be called “lucifers”?

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Catholic bishop asks parishioners to cover rape case costs

Wait … what?

Just when you thought the Papacy and its capos couldn’t get any more depraved:

BISHOP Denis Brennan is asking parishes in the Diocese of Ferns to help the church pay outstanding compensation and legal bills arising from clerical sex abuse cases. The bishop made his controversial appeal while addressing the AGM of the diocesan finance committee in the Riverside Park Hotel on Monday night.

Okay, sure. Why shouldn’t we help the richest religious organisation in the world pay to defend its own crimes of rape, negligence & culpability?

‘Funding sought is not about sharing the blame, it is about asking for help to fulfill a God-given responsibility.’

Nobody is looking to share the blame because the blame is all yours. Everybody is asking you people to fulfill your own “God-given” responsibility.

To say that ‘I did not cause the problem’ should not be the response of the Christian, he said.

Is it okay if the victims or their families say that?

It should be, he said: ‘I would like to help in the work of justice, healing, reconciliation, a safer environment for children in the future, proper financial stewardship and overall good economic health.’

No, you cassocked clown, that should be the response of the Vatican and the Vatican alone. It’s the Vatican who was aware of the abuse for decades, it’s the Vatican who spent those decades covering it up; therefore, it is the Vatican and the Vatican alone who should be responsible for justice, healing and reconciling, It is the Vatican who should work to ensure a safer environment for children (my version of a safer environment for children would be to remove them entirely from Catholic churches, but perhaps I’m overreaching).

Similarly, it is the Vatican who should pay every last god-damned penny to every last god-damned lawyer they’ve employed to mitigate the damage. For fifteen hundred years this church has been raking in gold tax-free and now, after decades of constant worldwide revelations of instituionalised child-rape and endless coverups, they have the nerve to cry poor. I’d laugh heartily if I wasn’t disgusted beyond words.

I simply do not understand. I need someone to help me understand. What kind of mentality is at work when the criminal asks its victims to pay for their defence? Is it some kind of “trickle down” effect of Papal infallibility? Is it just the stain of centuries of privilege taking forever to be rinsed out by reason? Do these cerebrally-stunted padres live in such stark isolation from reality that they have lost all sense of empathy? I suppose they do – the evidence keeps stacking up against them. From the Pope with his literally deadly stupidity about condoms to this bishop his hand out, the ranks of Catholicism seem to fairly bristle with a bizarre mashup of certainty, ignorance & entitlement unmatched by anything else I’ve seen (and that’s including neo-conservative Republicans in the US). When religious people accuse atheists of not having any moral compass, please point them to the Vatican and ask “how is their morality superior to mine?”

Appealing for parish donations, [Bishop Brennan] said: ‘I would be grateful for whatever ways you might be able to help me and the diocese to complete a road on which it has been necessary to travel, a road that will hopefully go beyond the requirements of justice and grow in terms of the reconciliation with which we are currently engaged and may be further permitted, or invited, in the future,’ he added.

Uh …

Bishop Brennan said the funding of claims associated with child abuse perpetrated by members of the clergy, continues to impact on the diocese financially.

That’s kind of the point of having to pay reparations, wouldn’t you think? If perpetrators get off scot-free or – lucky them – die before justice can reach them, making the employer who was an accomplice to their criminal behaviour responsible financially makes a lot of sense.

A total of 48 settlements, costing €8,120,7075, have been made to date. Of this amount, €2,138,692 was paid in legal fees.

There are 13 civil actions pending against the diocese with a potential cost of over € 2 million, based on previous pay-outs.

The diocese has also paid €2,121,478 in legal fees for its co-operation with the Bermingham and Ferns Inquiries into the handling of sex assault allegations. It later recovered €650,000 of that from the Government.

Wait. Why did the diocese get to claim some money back? Why does a culpable defendant who is ordered to pay reparations get to have anything? And what then prompts that defendant to ask for more money from the people his employer left to the mercies of rapists?

I don’t think I’ll ever understand the Catholic mindset, either from the point of view of an everyday Catholic who puts up with constant bullshit from their company or from a blinkered idiot of a middle- manager who doesn’t see anything wrong with asking victims to pay for their abusers’ lawyers. I think I need to talk to a few Catholics and see precisely why they still swear allegiance to this gang of corrupt old virgins.

[Tip o’ the mitre to the Paliban]

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It just never seems to end

You’ve heard the story before: a Catholic priest molests, abuses or rapes children. The Vatican “investigates” the matter itself and, instead of censuring or dismissing the culprit or involving the authorities, quietly shuffles the priest to another area. The abuse occurs again. The procedure happens again. The cycle continues. Years or decades later, documents are unearthed, records are unsealed, whistles are blown, victims come forward and a scandal ensues. Empty babbling from the Vatican is heard about investigations and about how seriously they are taking everything. The story fades from the press. Until it happens again, somewhere else. Chances are you know someone who’s been affected by one of these stories, perhaps directly. Chances are you don’t know it.

It is, unfortunately, a story common to most, if not all, nations that have been blessed by the presence of this morally bankrupt church. Countless children in Latin America, Australia, the UK, the USA, Ireland and now, it is revealed, Germany, have suffered sexual violence, humiliation, shame, fear and rank injustice at the hands of those who claim moral authority not just over their Catholic subjects but the entirety of human existence. This story of rape, coverup and denial is depressingly familiar, as is the feeling of complete powerlessness much of the world feels when hearing the latest instalment of Vatican-sanctioned depravity.
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I really don’t know what to say about this anymore.

The Vatican has had in place, since 1962, an internal policy requiring everyone from cardinals down to remain silent about any and every claim and report and instance of child rape in the name of the trinity, on pain of excommunication and, presumably, attendant denial of eternal salvation. This “omerta” policy betrays not only the trust of every child ever placed in Catholic “care”, but the very words of the Jewish carpenter which are the cornerstone of its teachings. Will this policy be reviewed? Repealed? Will a new policy exhorting priests at every level of the Papist heirarchy to report any and every allegation of abuse to the relevant police forces? Mandatory reporting policies are in place in every childcare centre, school and hospital in the modern world. Why not a church which, given its claim to moral superiority in every aspect, should find such mandatory reporting second nature? Why should the Vatican get a free pass to ignore what every other institution concerned with child education and welfare takes for granted and sees as a part of everyday operation? You can bet that if a school, hospital or other large organisation had such a sinister record regarding child welfare that its relevant authorities would be all over it like a rash, closing offices down, subpoenaing documents, arresting people & auditing its books. I really don’t know what it would take, in the light of this continuing circumvention of the law and shameful hypocrisy, for someone, anyone (Carabinieri? Interpol?) to investigate the Vatican at every level of its operation from the ground up. I don’t know what it would take for the UN to suspend the pretend statehood of the Vatican until its every grotty little nook is dusted and exposed to the light; every record unsealed; every allegation investigated, aired and pursued to its conclusion. What good is a body like the UN if a particular state is not beholden to the same rules and standards as every other member?

How could the self-described keepers of The Word of God not be able to see how keeping these allegations a secret is as good as being accessory to them? If you wish, view that question as semi-rhetorical, for it more or less answers itself with a little thought: because the Vatican’s rules and policies self-evidently exist to serve not God, not Jesus, not the blessed Virgin or its other many deities, definitely not to serve the one billion or so adherents; they exist, first and foremost, to protect the Vatican and its willing servants.

The fact that the word “Catholic” has become synonymous with rape, abuse, scandal & coverup should make everyone who calls themselves Catholic apopleptic with rage. Catholics: your name has been dragged through the shit, not by “strident, militant” atheists, not by rival denominations, not even by other religions, but by the very organisation you have willed your eternal soul to. What will it take for you, good Catholics of the world, to let these “fathers” of yours know that this is not how you treat children? That this is not how you even treat adults? When will you understand how corrupt and self-serving this church of yours is? A Christian’s allegiance, one would think, should be to Jesus and his message, not to a human political construction that exists to further itself ahead of the salvation of millions. If no other wrongs had ever been done by the Vatican in the entirety of human history this continuing, global scandal of child rape and enforced silence should have you leaving your pews in disgust and spitting on the golden finery of your alleged betters. European history is replete with examples of dissatisfied subjects rising from their fields and factories to overthrow and destroy the privileged, perfumed, primped princes that ruled, robbed and demeaned them – would that a similar thing would happen to the world’s last corrupt empire.

Catholicism is empty – not as practised by the everyday Catholic, but how it is practised by those who claim to hold its keys; it is a greedy, shameful blot on humanity’s past and present. I hope that someday Catholics will realise they don’t need the church to be Christians. I hope they desert this rotting empire in droves. I hope the Vatican will one day need to hold a bake sale to raise money for a new Pope-mobile, which in a best-case scenario will be something like a 1997 Toyota Corolla. Decent car, no doubt, but a far cry from a million-dollar bulletproof Mercedes.

This isn’t an atheist issue. It’s not even a religious issue. This is a human issue. This is not about pointing the finger at Christianity and claiming that it is invalidated because of the actions of a small number of its adherents. This is about the specific claims to moral superiority that the Vatican has been making since it declared itself emperor of Christendom centuries ago, and how since then those claims have consistently (almost constantly) been shown to be as vacuous and hollow as a bishop’s mitre.

Paula Kirby on Ireland’s avenging angels

Paula Kirby at the Washington Post nails it as usual. She identifies Ireland’s Murphy & Ryan Reports into the decades of institutionalised abuse of children and subsequent cover-ups by the Catholic Church as the most important religion news of the past year.

The Ryan Report, published in May, shocked a normally phlegmatic world with its catalogue of physical, sexual and emotional abuse perpetrated on generations of Irish children, mostly at the hands of Roman Catholic monks, nuns and priests. More shocking still was its conclusion that this savage abuse, far from being the random acts of a few out-of-control mavericks, was both endemic and systemic and, furthermore, was actively covered up by the Church, whose only concern was the preservation of its own reputation.

The Murphy Report, which was published just a month ago, focused on the way allegations of sexual abuse were dealt with in the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin, by both church and state authorities. This report found that:

The Dublin Archdiocese’s pre-occupations in dealing with cases of child sexual abuse, at least until the mid 1990s, were the maintenance of secrecy, the avoidance of scandal, the protection of the reputation of the Church, and the preservation of its assets. All other considerations, including the welfare of children and justice for victims, were subordinated to these priorities. The Archdiocese did not implement its own canon law rules and did its best to avoid any application of the law of the State.

 That’s a telling paragraph (although it would probably come as no surprise to anyone who’s been following these matters with an honest mind). The reputation of the Church was always the priority. Justice for raped children wasn’t just put on the back-burner, it was even acknowledged as a need to be met. The Church was simply not interested in either protecting children with preventive measures or punishing those who abused and raped them. It was not interested in investigating the reasons for the widespread abuse; it was concerned only with keeping its golden reputation. This horror show was perpetrated at all levels of the Church’s command structure too. Successive Popes, including the much venerated John Paul II and the much-reviled Ratzinger, participated in these cover-ups. Even if, in an undeserved moment of charity, you grant that a Pope might have been shielded from such information by his untermenschen, the fact is that Popes don’t start as Popes; they have to work their way through the hierarchy like any good corporate climber. The idea that any Pope was unaware that countless numbers of his henchmen were raping children and being protected from the law by bishops & cardinals is laughable and abhorrent. In fact, the only thing more abhorrent is the fact of an allegedly infallible Pope being aware of such horror and doing nothing.

That this information should come as a surprise to anyone living in a country with a history of Catholic “education” or “welfare” is also a great tragedy. We’ve all heard of priests being moved about from place to place when allegations of abuse surface: it’s not just Ireland that this Catholic cancer has metastasised. Australia, the US, Canada, the rest of Britain – anywhere the Catholic Church has had a hand in educating or raising children, priests have repeatedly abused or destroyed the innocence and trust of those children. Not only that, but their bishops have allowed them to get away with it in the name of protecting the monolithic church that they serve.

That a handful of Irish bishops have resigned should provide no comfort to anyone affected by these decades of horror; it’s transparently obvious that the bishops who have resigned have done so due to being backed into a corner by these damning reports and given little choice. Nobody resigned before these reports were released and no bishops or cardinals have been dismissed, much less ex-communicated (no, you have to do something really evil like get a divorce to really piss the Vatican off – permitting or participating in the rape of children is just fine). No Vatican spokesmen have appeared to announce full investigations or intent to provide reparations or make amends and none have announced new Vatican policies to do with limiting or monitoring priests’ access to children or performing any kind of assessments on priests’ suitability for working with children in the first place.

It makes me wonder: what would the reactions be if this were any institution but a church. If this widespread and well-concealed abuse and rape was happening in the state secular education system – if, over half a century, teachers and counselors at state schools were raping students and being shuffled from school to school by their principals and supervisors in the education department to shield them – how long would it be before you saw immediate suspensions, Royal Commissions begun, charges laid and people jailed? It seems almost a question too silly to ask. Most people know that, when government departments are rocked by scandals, once the truth is out and damage control is no longer a viable option, they go into overdrive sacking people and involving the authorities (often the authorities involve themselves). Not so with the Church: they’re still in damage control, still blaming a few “bad apples”, still refusing to investigate properly, still refusing to look inward to see if Vatican policy is at fault and should be changed.

Of course, this is du jour in many ways for religious groups anyway – because they are religious, special treatment is demanded and all too often delivered. To question a “holy man” or his church is still taboo. For a holy man to question his own church is nothing short of heresy.

A number of very senior members of the Gardaí [Irish Police], including the Commissioner in 1960, clearly regarded priests as being outside their remit.

This is the perfect example of how tragically misplaced society’s automatic respect for religion is, and what devastating consequences it can have. Because of an automatic, knee-jerk, unconsidered respect for all things religious, the assumption that religion is good and benign and necessary for stability and morality, the taboo on publicly criticizing it, the unspoken assumption that it must be shielded, protected and privileged at all costs – because of these things, thousands of children had their formative years turned into seemingly endless nightmares, in which they were brutally flogged, punched, hurled around classrooms, humiliated, semi-starved, mocked, degraded and raped. Anything rather than bring the Church into disrepute.

Even when I considered myself Christian I refused to acknowledge infallibility in the institutions which supported it; not least the Catholic Church with its fatal sexual regulations, obscene & hypocritical wealth, pretend country with a UN seat, its own bank(!) and its appointed emperor with his palace in Rome. When I started to learn of the abuse it inflicted on its faithful, all this gilt-edged finery seemed like a cruel, cynical joke. While their people were suffering at the hands of their priests, their leaders slept in silk and drank from gold. Of course, with a racket like theirs, you can understand why the Papacy has for years protected itself at the expense of everything it allegedly stands for: piety, truth, love, compassion. However, since the Roman Church was begun in the last throes of a dying empire and its faith was spread and enforced at the point of a sword, it really comes as no surprise that the highest priority has always been to protect that empire at all costs. Render unto the Pope the things that are Caesar’s.

The Murphy and Ryan reports show not just that Irish Catholicism needs an overhaul; it is also that religion in general is absolutely no guarantee of honesty and morality. Here we have the largest & most influential Christian institution on the planet – the one you may expect to be the ultimate paragon of virtue – being run like a crime family (except it must be said that the Sopranos, Corleones and even their real-life counterparts conduct themselves with a great deal more honour than this mob from Rome). Religious people frequently demonise atheists for being immoral or having no moral code: well, I defy anyone to identify a nonreligious institution with a record like that of the Catholic Church, who went from Crusades to Inquisitions to facilitating Nazism to permitting a half-century of institutionalised paedophilia.

Clearly, Irish Catholics need to re-evaluate whether they want to be a part of an organisation who behaves so callously in its own self-interest and cares so little for the millions who make it what it is. They need to look honestly at these reports and ask themselves if leaving the Church is as bad as the Church itself makes it out to be. In time, perhaps American, Australian and other Catholics world-wide may see their own version of the Ryan & Murphy Reports. In time, perhaps, the Vatican itself may see its numbers dwindle and its funding dry up. Perhaps the Vatican may one day realise that it needs to adapt to a changing world or lose its grip on it. Perhaps that’s too much to hope for.
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US Court allows case against Vatican

*sailor-talk warning*

Excellent.

[source]

Hold the fuckers liable, make them accountable and make them PAY. A LOT. Not just money either, I want to see some people jailed. And perhaps [SOMETHING], very roughly, by a large, angry Aryan Brother. Or, poetically perhaps, shanked in the neck by some poor damaged junkie kid whose descent into the criminal underworld began at the hands of some cassocked nonce one night after vespers.

Excuse my French, but the only thing that fucks me off as much if not more than a rapist of children is someone convering up for a rapist of children.

From the Wall St Journal article:

A federal appeals court has permitted a lawsuit over alleged sexual abuse to proceed against the Vatican, creating potential liability for the seat of the Roman Catholic faith for the activities of Catholic clergy in the U.S.

Monday’s ruling, issued by the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Cincinnati, marks the first time a court at so high a level has recognized that the Vatican could be liable for the negligence in sexual-abuse cases brought in the U.S.

The ruling is seen as a breakthrough by those allegedly abused by priests. Investigators and grand juries have found several instances where the church failed to report alleged abusers and covered up alleged misdeeds to protect them.

Which is almost as bad as the abuse itself. If you personally know of a crime and neglect to report it, you become an accessory to that crime by allowing it to continue.

One of the central pieces of evidence in the case is a 1962 memo, issued by the Vatican and disclosed by reporters in 2003, which directs Catholic bishops to keep silent about claims of sex abuse. The document was approved by Pope John the 23rd.

Well now, if you know of a crime being committed but have been specifically ordered by your employers/superiors/robed & mitred capos not to report it, then they’re also accessories. Yes, also. No fucking way will “just following orders” get you out of this one. Didn’t work for the last crew of brainwashed, uniformed, ignorant fucks who took over the world, powered by mythology and brutality.

Okay, I rag on Catholicism more often than most people. I definitely have a chip on each shoulder about the organisation. But only because the Papacy goddam well deserves it. It’s not the regular everyday believers, the doctrines, the beliefs, the rituals – none of that shit matters. It’s the Vatican’s actions that define it and it’s their actions that fuck me off. Crusades, centuries of Jew-hatred, Nazi sympathy. Constant, deadly lies and anti-human rights bullshit about abortion, contraception, premarital sex. And it’s not just the child abuse – paedophiles are found in every scummy little corner of society. But the Papacy seems to have had a decades-old policy of denying, ignoring or flat-out enabling the sick bastards to continue with their depravity (and this organisation has the fucking nerve to oppose gay equality!).

The Vatican’s hundreds of years old, has a billion followers and claims to be the one true church of the ever-lovin Christ-child, son of the one true god. It claims to be the halfway house between horrid, yukky Earth and totally awesome, sparkly Heaven. It claims to represent the one true god’s all-loving persona…but the one thing that rankles me most: the Papacy’s wizards go on frequent rampages about abortion & contraception, all in the name of the little children, God’s dear children, those teeny lil’ everyday miracles with their big eyes and innocence and for the love of god won’t anyone think of the children!? Don’t abort that clump of cells, it has a soul (never mind that between a third and a half of all pregnancies spontaneously self-terminate, often before the woman even knows she’s pregnant – does that make God the world’s most voracious abortionist?)! Don’t use contraception, think of the soul you’re not creating when you waste your more-or-less-infinite sperm (never mind that gazillions of sperm are wasted with every attempt at conception anyway, with every single wet dream, with every sample given for medical reasons and by every man who doesn’t even ejaculate let alone conceive a child every single fucking day of his life, which is most of us)!

Well, OK Vatican, you claim you care about children, about new souls (I think you give more of a fuck about your membership drying up, but that’s another post). Why, then, have you put so much effort over the years into protecting members of your organisation who have abused & raped the trust, minds, bodies and hearts of countless innocent CHILDREN? If reports of that 1962 memo from Johnny are accurate, does that not just shoot down your pathetic soundbyte-ready hand-wringing every time someone mentions “family planning” or “safe sex” down in hypocritical flames? Every time I see one of your frocked spokestrolls on TV with his concerned, bulbous face spouting about abortion or frangers being evil, I shout at the TV, “what the FUCK are you FUCKING HYPOCRITES doing about your FUCKING PAEDOPHILE ARMY?”

Or do you people only care about God’s precious little children before they’re born?

I hope similar decisions happen the world over – I’d like to see truly massive lawsuits come from every corner of the globe and millions of subpoenas land on the Vatican’s gigantic fucking gold-encrusted doorstep. I can think of few better ways for the Papacy to go stone cold fucking broke than emptying its coffers & selling up all its zillions of acres of real estate settling with victims of the rapist priests they’ve been enabling for decades. I’d like to see irrelevant wastes of space like Ratzinger & Pell have no goddam choice but to take a vow of poverty. I’d like the Vatican’s secret libraries wide open to the public, so we can all see exactly what they’ve been hiding from the world for so long (like what they left out of the Bible – and why). I’d like to see the Vatican cease being its own pretend country, lose its UN seat (how the FUCK did that even happen at all?), start paying fucking taxes and become the world’s greatest museum – a monument to both artistic genius and extreme human greed, criminal hypocrisy and spiritual imperialism based on guilt & fear. Hell, I’d like to see the whole disgusting scam exposed for what it is and see a billion people freed.

Christians on youtube = good times!

Over recent months I’ve taken (for some reason) to commenting in youtube threads and getting myself into arguments. I present, for your entertainment, selected comment exchanges following this video about the origins of the character of Satan. It was an interesting video, if lacking a little depth, but the comments – as is often the case on youtube – were the best part.

fyuuryjury:
demons are attracted to rotting death, like their name in the bible say, beelzebub (or lord of the flies) that’s why there are so many haunting in places like cemeteries, they are a being without form only mind and power(also from the bible) they can create powerful illussion of sight, sound, feel, smell and taste such as ghost, troll, goblin ect.. its all just illussion of their dark, filthy, twisted and evil minds, that’s why there are no hard proof or evidence of them.

mandrellian:
You said “that’s why there are no hard proof or evidence of them”. So how do you KNOW they haunt cemeteries and create illusions and have dark twisted minds, or even exist at all? Without evidence or proof, you can’t know anything. All you can do is take someone’s word for it or believe a bunch of old fables & superstitions. Or make it up yourself.

Fyuuryjury seems to be confusing the bible with Hallowe’en.

Then came this inspired comment…

blessedjohn:
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

… which received this response from me:
Thanks for your input there blessedjohn. Feel free to get back to us when you have a thought of your own that doesn’t originate in someone else’s book.Anyone who still believes this Satan character (your basic boogeyman/scare-you-straight villain, cobbled together from various ancient mythologies – like most other characters in the Christian fiction) is real and wants to torment your soul needs to do some serious growing up. And if you also teach this shit to your kids as true, shame on you.

…which in turn inspired this work of typically well-proofread genius and subsequent free exchange of ideas and respectful discourse (why do the most angry ones never check what they write?):

02joseph02:
fuck you ASS HOLe if u dont bvelive in god then go fuck your self

I wiped my screen – having spat out my drink laughing my arse off at this concentration of pure, raging STIPUD, and replied…

mandrellian:
Another great piece of loving, compassionate Xtian input.Seriously, can you guys do anything besides (a) quote scripture or (b) hurl badly-typed abuse at people? One only DEMON-strates (ooh booga booga) your willing enslavement to mythology, the other only shows that you don’t, can’t or won’t proofread your comments before you post.But I believe I will go fuck myself, thank you. I haven’t spilled any daemon-seed today and I’m feeling a bit pent-up.

02joseph02:
if your an athist and if you dont belive in god the you should just kill your self beacuse if there is nothing out there then you wont have to wory i mean if you die you wouldent regret killing your self youd be dead you wont feel anything so what if people belive in god at least it gives them hope that there is a god on like u fucking pesemist

mandrellian:
I was a lot more pessimistic when I was a Xtian – and I was a lot more fucking polite to people who weren’t Xtian!The fact that I don’t count on an afterlife means that I make _this_ life count. Life’s too short go around telling people I don’t know to fucking commit suicide because we believe different things. Although I’m tempted to, because if you survive to breed you’re no doubt going to pass your halfwitted, illiterate, hate-filled fundamentalist bigotry on to your kids.

02joseph02 seemingly thought I was no longer worth his precious time – after all, there may be heathens down at the mega-mall to convert! Entertaining though that was, I’m actually glad it was brief.

Next came this chap…

acenaspheru:
hate goes both ways. you complaining about people bashing you is hypocritical when you bash others. the fact remains that no one alive can know for sure who is right or wrong and to assume that you do is arrogant and just as half witted as those who you say are halfwits. believing or not believing in something has nothing to do with intelegance.

mandrellian:
Belief has *everything* to do with intelligence (as does spelling and grammar). A belief is a choice we make through our experience of the world and our understanding of it. The better your understanding, the more informed your beliefs will be. If you choose to believe superstition and teach it as truth without thinking, your understanding of the world is shallow and inadequate.Read my last paragraph again. I bash *ideas*, not people. A stupid idea should be called stupid, simple as that.

acenaspheru:
okay. 🙂 try science and history. The account where the sun stood still, was not just in the bible but is also reported by cultures around the world, proving that it actually happened. The Native Americans have a story about a time when the sun didn’t rise.

There is evidence of a large disasterous flood. Science has proven how the ten plagues came about. And also how the reed sea was parted. *not red sea as was incorrectly translated* There are countless things you can look up that happened.

mandrellian:
The Native Americans also have a story about the Thunderbird. Believe that too? The Aborigines have one about the Rainbow Serpent carving out riverbeds. The Greeks had a flying horse too! What other mythologies are you gonna cherry-pick to confirm your own?

I always chuckle when theists use the word “science” when they think it confirms their fables, but will dismiss it out of hand when it tells of evolution or the 4 billion year old Earth or anything else that contradicts their dogma.

That was actually the end of the public version of our exchange. Acenaspheru contacted me personally later to send me this message (comment length limit restricted the exchange, so I have to give the guy respect for following up his arguments). I’d paste the whole exchange but it was a private conversation and, to be honest, it was just a longer version of the exchange in the comments and wouldn’t bring anything new – though I did some research and found out exactly what disastrous consequences would eventuate if the Earth suddenly stopped rotating (which would produce the illusion of the sun standing still):

“Get this: our planet rotates at about 1100 miles (1770 km) per hour. If it were to stop suddenly, because of inertia our atmosphere would still be spinning at that speed! Imagine a global windstorm of over Mach 1.5 – it would scrub the Earth clean! Every ounce of topsoil, every plant, every animal and anything not anchored to the bedrock would be swept up into the atmosphere, turning into a massive cloud of deadly airborne debris. We’re talking a disaster a billion times worse than that tornado in The Wizard Of Oz.

That’s not even considering the gigantic quantities of water that will now be sloshing around as massive, continent-sized tsunamis, washing away what ever the wind doesn’t blow away. Think about how hard it is to drive or sit in a moving car and try to keep a bucket from spilling (or even just half a cup of water) and think about what happens when you stop suddenly. Multiply it by several trillion.”

In short: it would be very, very, very BAD.

After a little break, the thread got interesting again!

conradpilapil:
They found skeletons.. wow..

Well. One can’t let crap like that slide, can one?

mandrellian:
Is that what constitutes a rebuttal to two centuries of paleontology, geology and of scientific progress in general?

Seriously, if all you’re going to do is act like a sarcastic teenager, this thread’s better off without you.

Conrad later contacted me privately as well, but all he could muster was a sentence and a half of incoherent fundie-babble which, I now regret, I marked as spam, deleted, at which point I blocked him. I don’t use youtube messaging at all unless someone messages me first, but I still don’t want it filled with crap. At least acenaspheru had some idea of how to communicate with other humans; this guy could barely tell me what he believed, let alone why what I believed was bollocks.

This commenter, however, was pure gold! He’s still going in that thread too, ever-ready to fight the good fight with his Flaming Sword of Flaming (+50 ignorance but easily deflected if opponent has the intelligence of a cave troll or higher).

pzloz:
You consider Christianity to be a fable. Is it me or in the last 20 years have people decided that mocking religion is the hip and cool thing to do. I understand evolution, and the age of the planet, and so on. It must be very difficult to mock something you never understood in the beginning. I think atheists are the biggest assholes on the planet, the biggest egos, arrogant, condescending and such. Based on what I read from you. You sound like an asshole set forth I will refer to you as one.

Straight off he drops the a-bomb! Bam! I had up to that point tried and be, if not flat-out nice, at least more civil than people had been with me.

mandrellian:
LOL pzloz. Nice flaming, you keyboard warrior. This isn’t some fad. People have been denying religion since before yours was even founded. All myth treated as fact should be mocked, as should people who think insults qualify as some sort of superior argument.

FYI I was raised Christian. I read the bible. I understand it very well – that’s the precise reason I’m an atheist. Perhaps if you actually understood your own mythology … well, clearly that’s too much to expect. Flame on, third-grader.

pzloz:
Oh okay mandrellian. Myths? Think what you want. Perhaps you don’t understand the bible that well to be an atheist. Atheists consider themselves intellectually superior to everyone who has faith. Being atheists does not constitute for squat. It is just a fad everybody thinks is cool because you find holes in religion. Holes are everywhere. There are people who have faith and understand science and the world. I always knew there are weak people in the world and atheists prove that to me always.

mandrellian:
That you think atheism is some fad speaks more to your *own* massive ignorance of what’s right in front of you. We don’t think we’re superior – we just have better standards of evidence and a more sensitive lie detector.

Scream all you want, you little emo for Jesus – we’re not going anywhere, unlike every “god” that’s ever “existed”. Think about every extinct religion (mythology) and about all the current ones you don’t believe in – then you’ll get why atheists don’t believe in any of it.

pzloz:
Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are all united faiths in the same God. We are together in that belief. They just don’t hold up Christ the way we do. Mythology is like referenced earlier to. Hydras, Giant World Trees, a giant wolf, centaurs, etc. Standards of evidence??? What the fuck is that??? Oh I forgot, atheists have it all figured, right? They’re pseudo-scientists and actual scientiests. I have more respect them as intellectually enlightened people, then disrespecting atheists like you.

mandrellian:
I KNOW I don’t have it all figured out – but I’m okay with that. Sure as hell beats crediting a god every time I don’t have an answer.

Hydras, world trees – how the hell are they any less believable than walking on water, the virgin conception, the loaves and fishes, the resurrection, the water to wine, Lazarus etc? Oh, I know: because they’re all myths and your stories are The Truth. Get yourself some perspective, keyboard warrior.

Heard nothing back from wee prince valiant on that score – I guess he’s just “pulled a fundie” and decided I’m bound for hell, so why waste with me anymore. As he proves in a later exchange with “pressgangers“, he seems quite happy to gloat over someone he thinks is hellbound.

There was another quick exchange after that, which was great fun.

barallor:
Very interesting and yes satan existsfor example look at israel the jews were the poeple that god chose and so satan tries to destroy them in every possible way more than any other population in the world.

02joseph02:
that is so tru i never realy thought of it that way i mean the greeks the percians the egyptianss the russians the nazis the muslims(not all muslims) the list gose on

mandrellian:
Hilarious, barallor. Since the time of Jesus, the Christians have done more to attempt extermination of Jews than any goat-legged boogeyman.

acenaspheru:
this depiction of satan actually originates in donte’s inferno and other popular fictional stories. in most of the bible he’s described looking more human. however you are partly correct. it’s not just christans though, it’s islamics too.

while i do believe that satan exists, i do not believe he can be blamed for all the evil and hatred in the world. as humans we want a scape goat, to pass blame to someone else for our deeds. satan is that scape goat. yes he can be blamed for a lot of things, but i don’t believe things like wars and tragedies like 911 were due to him. there are very evil people in the world.

mandrellian:
If Satan isn’t responsible for all the evil in the world he may as well not exist at all. If he’s not behind 9/11 or the Holocaust, because humans are perfectly capable of evil acts on their own, what’s the point of his existence? To just piss God off? He sounds less evil than the Hamburglar.

If Satan exists at all it’s because God allows him to. If that’s the case, who’s the more evil? The prince of darkness? Or the guy with the power to defeat him but chooses not to?

Oddly enough, noone wanted to have a go at that one – well, only in a textbook passive aggressive way by clicking “thumbs down” on my comment. Well, baw! I wanted a goddam answer to that one too! Why does God allow Satan to exist and plague mankind? God created everything: heaven, hell, Satan, angels – can’t he just undo his mistakes rather than let humanity suffer for thousands of years? For that matter, why does Ronald McDonald continue to tolerate Hamburglar’s constant attempts to make off with his product? Ron’s the boss for god’s sake – it’s called McDonaldland isn’t it?

Finally, one last oddity…

peejaydub:
well mandrellian, if u are a athist then why did u bother to look up this video? then on top of that u tried to change what people should think aobut their own religion, something tells me that the devil speaks through people like u. but u people are to blind sited to see what is truely going on.

i will pray for you

Joy! My favourite kind of comment from a religionist – PITY! Sweet, glorious pity 😀

mandrellian:
Please don’t pray for me. I’ll be fine. As a wise man once said: “two hands put to work will accomplish more than a thousand clasped in prayer.”

I looked up this video to discover the origins of the MYTH of Satan because I am interested in what primitive people believed (and what some modern people still believe) and why. Is it necessary to believe in fictional characters in order to find them interesting? Only, it seems, if you’re religious …

No response – perhaps he’s still busy praying…

So, there you have it. A weekend video search for interesting documentaries (I *love* this century: sick days/weekend TV on rainy days can suck balls, but if you have broadband you have doco heaven – the time I’ve killed watching docs on Romans, Mongols, Nazis, Commies and other failed empires has been well spent and very entertaining), a comment from a religionist I can’t resist responding to and bam! A very entertaining exchange with a variety of theists. Some respectful, some downright rude, some ignorant, some pitiful & retarded. I don’t get angry with the more idiotic ones; they just baffle me. Are their identities so wrapped up in their religion – and their religion in turn so fragile that it can’t withstand any kind of questioning – that any critique of that religion is automatically assumed to be a personal attack? It would appear so, considering the personal attacks I copped in return from a couple of those goons. “Go fuck yourself”, “kill yourself”, “your [sic] an asshole”? I mean, come on. Defend your faith & your beliefs because that’s what’s under attack, not you! I don’t know you people from a bar of yellow soap, but if you make it personal, in my eyes you’ve already lost. Grow the fuck up! Hell, if their identity & self-worth are that brittle – being propped up by an equally brittle belief system – maybe I should pray for pity them…

But hey, if you think some of that’s bad – check out Pat Condell’s comment threads 😀 Fark!! That guy can attract malice like no other – I imagine it’s the kind of bloodshot-eyed, Rage-virus-from-28 Days Later kind of hatred PZ Myers would attract if he had a youtube account 🙂

Happy Tuesday everyone!